I had the pleasure of interviewing Adam Hamilton yesterday. Adam is senior pastor of the 16,000 member Church of the Resurrection in Leawood, KS. He is the author of Confronting the Controversies, Seeing Gray in a World of Black and White, and Enough.
SHANE: First of all, your books and your sermon series are usually very practical. You seem to have a recurring theme of "things you always wanted to know about...." and you're not afraid of dealing with controversial issues. How do you decide what to preach and write about?
ADAM: I take one week every summer and go on silent retreat, spending time in
prayer, taking with me the prayer request cards of the congregation,
books that will help me think, and my Bible. Prior to that week I send
an e-mail to the congregation inviting them to pray, and then to submit
ideas for sermons they need, or they think their friends need. I ask
them what theological questions they have that they would like to hear
a sermon on. I ask them what dimensions of the Christian life they
need help with. I ask them what parts of the Bible they feel I have
neglected or they simply would like to hear more about. I ask what
personal issues they are wrestling with, or what societal issues they
would like to have me consider in the light of the scriptures. There
are usually 40 years worth of sermon ideas they submit and I read over
them all. I also meet with our staff and key leaders prior to the
retreat and ask for their input. So the process is very collaborative.
I read all of this input. I pray. I read scripture. I pray. I
walk. I pray. I read other books. I pray. And eventually the ideas
seem to flow. I lay out sermon series ideas - usually four years worth
of ideas. I keep chewing on them, praying over them, and begin to add
sermon titles and a few more ideas. When I'm finished with this week,
I meet with our worship planning team, share the ideas, and they help
me discern which are most needful for our congregation and/or which
most resonate with them. Out of this comes a two year sermon plan. I
revise and change this plan throughout the year.
SHANE: Your latest book Enough deals with the subject of money. How does a pastor preach and write about money without the appearance of a conflict of
interests? For example, if people take a pastor's advice on tithing,
his or her church obviously benefits financially. How does this affect
the sensitivity with which you broach the subject?
ADAM: This is a good question. Enough came out of my desire not so much to raise money as to help people in an area of life most Americans struggle with. My "stewardship" series the last couple of years were more about doing pastoral care and discipleship than raising money. But the result was that people gave more generously and faithfully.
SHANE: Your latest book seems especially relevant given the current financial crisis. How do you think our handling of our personal finances has impacted our national economic situation? Is our pursuit of the "American Dream" responsible for the mess we're in?
ADAM: Yes, I think we are where we are because we've become confused about where life is found. When you get to the bottom of the current economic crisis, both on Wall Street and Main Street, what you find are at least four of the seven deadly sins: gluttony, greed, envy and pride. We continued to believe that joy is found in having more stuff. Our economy was fueled by making it possible for American consumers to buy an ever increasing amount of "stuff" by borrowing tomorrow's income today. This is why a government bailout, while it may be important, will not ultimately solve the problem. We'll be right back where we are in a few years if we don't fundamentally re-think our relationship with money and possessions.
SHANE: You state in your book that tithing is possible at virtually any income level. Have you ever experienced resistance when you made that assertion? How do we let people know that God blesses our giving without falling into the "prosperity gospel" excesses?
SHANE: Your latest book Enough deals with the subject of money. How does a pastor preach and write about money without the appearance of a conflict of
ADAM: This is a good question. Enough came out of my desire not so much to raise money as to help people in an area of life most Americans struggle with. My "stewardship" series the last couple of years were more about doing pastoral care and discipleship than raising money. But the result was that people gave more generously and faithfully.
SHANE: Your latest book seems especially relevant given the current financial crisis. How do you think our handling of our personal finances has impacted our national economic situation? Is our pursuit of the "American Dream" responsible for the mess we're in?
ADAM: Yes, I think we are where we are because we've become confused about where life is found. When you get to the bottom of the current economic crisis, both on Wall Street and Main Street, what you find are at least four of the seven deadly sins: gluttony, greed, envy and pride. We continued to believe that joy is found in having more stuff. Our economy was fueled by making it possible for American consumers to buy an ever increasing amount of "stuff" by borrowing tomorrow's income today. This is why a government bailout, while it may be important, will not ultimately solve the problem. We'll be right back where we are in a few years if we don't fundamentally re-think our relationship with money and possessions.
SHANE: You state in your book that tithing is possible at virtually any income level. Have you ever experienced resistance when you made that assertion? How do we let people know that God blesses our giving without falling into the "prosperity gospel" excesses?
ADAM: Yes, I've had people explain to me why they could not tithe at
their income level. I listen patiently, and, when appropriate, explain
how LaVon and I began tithing the year we were married - we were 18
years old making a combined income of $11,000 - $1,000 below the
poverty level for a family of two that year. I was going to college
full time and we had no support from our families. And we gave 10% to
God and also sponsored a child through Compassion. I
tell folks that I don't give because I think God will make me rich as a
result. But I also share that our experience has been that we were
never hungry, and somehow we had more left over each month than our
friends who did not tithe. I could not completely explain this. I
feel God has blessed us and entrusted us with greater responsibility
because we sought to be faithful with the little that we had.
SHANE: Why do you consider it "countercultural" for Christians to not only live within our means, but below our means?
ADAM: Yes, our culture has for years invited people to live beyond their means - to buy the biggest house they could afford. To drive nicer and more expensive cars than they should have driven. And to live by credit to fund a lifestyle they could not really afford. There was no room for giving to God, to non-profits or to help family. But I think the gospel calls us to live simpler lives. Simplicity is a relative term. It looks different depending upon your income level. What I invite people to do is to live several rungs below their income level. LaVon and I try to practice this in our life. Our aim is to give away an increasing percentage of our income every year. Last year that was 22.5% of our after tax income. I hope by the time we retire it is significantly more than this. And, most of what we accumulate in our lives, we'll give away at our death to kingdom causes.
SHANE: How do John Wesley's example and teachings affect your views of money and stewardship?
ADAM: I think Wesley sets a great example, though not necessarily realistic for most of us. However, his dictum, earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can is one anyone can live by.
SHANE: A key theme of your book is contentment. How do we learn how to be content? How do we find a middle ground between the extremes of lazy complacency and an excessive interest in money?
ADAM: Gratitude is a key part of finding contentment. Gratitude helps trigger a change in our perspective. Our values have to change too - we begin to value time with people, we value doing meaningful things, we recognize that joy is usually found in simpler, rather than more elaborate things. Again, I think Wesley's dictum addresses your second question.
SHANE: Most people would consider you a moderate evangelical. There's an old saying that the problem with being in the middle of the road is you get hit by cars going both ways! Have you ever felt like that? In our denomination (and your congregation in particular) do you feel that you're a bridge-builder between the left and the right? If so, how? How do you think Church of the Resurrection with its diversity of viewpoints serves as a prototype for 21st century United Methodism?
ADAM: Wesley himself was a bridge builder - straddling the line between
Catholic and Protestant, between high church and low church,
conformists and non-conformists. In my book Seeing Gray in a World of Black and White
I identify with the "radical center." I recently heard former British
Prime Minister Tony Blair pick up this same theme. Yes, I have in the
past felt that I was a bit of a misfit - not conservative enough for
the conservatives and not liberal enough for the liberals.
Increasingly, however, I find growing cadre of people who are drawn to
this approach to the gospel - a holistic approach that holds in tension
the best of the left and the right. I also think this is precisely the
kind of approach to the Christian faith that 21st century young people
are most likely to respond to. In addition, the country as a whole is
currently moving in this same direction. Since
this is a part of Methodist DNA, I feel like we've got a huge
opportunity right now to be the church that reaches non-religious and
nominally religious people.
SHANE: You recently preached a sermon on a controversial topic: homosexuality. Your position on this subject seems to have moved left over the years, but you show an unusual amount of respect for people on both sides of the issue and you even appear to be attempting to forge a "third way." What would be your advice to congregations that take far left or far right positions on this? Is it possible to take a traditional position on homosexuality and still be a congregation that effectively reaches gays and lesbians?
ADAM: I think it will be increasingly difficult to be a vocal proponent of the current UM position on homosexuality and effectively reach the next generation, or to effectively reach gays and lesbians. I think one might hold the current UM stance and not address the issue and reach them. One might, for the next five years (ten years in the south) articulate our current position with great compassion, and still reach young adults, homosexuals and their friends, family and co-workers. But the world is changing and I think the church will see this issue differently in the future. I'm convinced that all of the evangelical churches will wrestle with this issue in ten to fifteen years or they will have lost a generation and will themselves begin a steady period of decline. Sunday I asked our congregation to raise their hands if they have a close friend or someone they love who is gay. 90% of the congregation raised their hands. These folks already see greater complexity in this issue than the church does. They may still be a bit more conservative, but they will not tolerate churches that speak in ways that are cruel and insensitive about their friends. It's one thing to debate homosexuality as a hypothetical argument about someone you hardly know. It is another thing to consider a position regarding the life of someone you love.
My own journey and position on this involves several things: First, I continue to acknowledge that the scripture teaches that heterosexuality is normative and, to use Leslie Weatherhead's language from his book, The Will of God, God's "intentional will." The second is to recognize that there is a small portion of the population that seems to be shaped differently from that intention, either at birth or by early childhood, and usually not by a choice that was their own. For these heterosexuality will be very difficult to live into, even with the kind of "reparative therapy" offered by some. Next, after thirty years of daily Bible reading I have come to recognize that the Bible is a more complex document than most people would like to admit. It is both a book written by human beings who were shaped by their cultural and theological presuppositions, and the limitations of their knowledge, and it is a book through which God has spoken and continues to speak. This recognition gives us the ability to wrestle with the texts on homosexuality and to at least ask questions of them (did God really intend that homosexuals be stoned to death? Does God really see the gay children who we baptized, gave third grade Bibles to, confirmed and raised up as an "abomination"?) Fourth, we have a clear mandate, throughout scripture, concerning demonstrating love. We are to "do justice and to love mercy." Finally, what has most affected me and my views of this issue over the years has been my love of the children in our congregation. Having been in this church nearly 19 years, more than a dozen of the children I've baptized and watched grow up in the church later "came out" - I love these children (now young adults) and as I listen to their stories, and the way they've been treated by other Christians, I find myself being very protective of them. Likewise, in a congregation of 16,000 people, if we're reaching a representative sample of the community, 5% of these - roughly 800 people - are gay or lesbian. And I feel a great compassion and care for those in my flock that I know who are gay. So, both in my theological reflection about the nature of God, the nature of scripture and the nature of love, and in my personal experience with children and youth I care about in my flock, I find my views moderating on this issue.
SHANE: Why do you consider it "countercultural" for Christians to not only live within our means, but below our means?
ADAM: Yes, our culture has for years invited people to live beyond their means - to buy the biggest house they could afford. To drive nicer and more expensive cars than they should have driven. And to live by credit to fund a lifestyle they could not really afford. There was no room for giving to God, to non-profits or to help family. But I think the gospel calls us to live simpler lives. Simplicity is a relative term. It looks different depending upon your income level. What I invite people to do is to live several rungs below their income level. LaVon and I try to practice this in our life. Our aim is to give away an increasing percentage of our income every year. Last year that was 22.5% of our after tax income. I hope by the time we retire it is significantly more than this. And, most of what we accumulate in our lives, we'll give away at our death to kingdom causes.
SHANE: How do John Wesley's example and teachings affect your views of money and stewardship?
ADAM: I think Wesley sets a great example, though not necessarily realistic for most of us. However, his dictum, earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can is one anyone can live by.
SHANE: A key theme of your book is contentment. How do we learn how to be content? How do we find a middle ground between the extremes of lazy complacency and an excessive interest in money?
ADAM: Gratitude is a key part of finding contentment. Gratitude helps trigger a change in our perspective. Our values have to change too - we begin to value time with people, we value doing meaningful things, we recognize that joy is usually found in simpler, rather than more elaborate things. Again, I think Wesley's dictum addresses your second question.
SHANE: Most people would consider you a moderate evangelical. There's an old saying that the problem with being in the middle of the road is you get hit by cars going both ways! Have you ever felt like that? In our denomination (and your congregation in particular) do you feel that you're a bridge-builder between the left and the right? If so, how? How do you think Church of the Resurrection with its diversity of viewpoints serves as a prototype for 21st century United Methodism?
SHANE: You recently preached a sermon on a controversial topic: homosexuality. Your position on this subject seems to have moved left over the years, but you show an unusual amount of respect for people on both sides of the issue and you even appear to be attempting to forge a "third way." What would be your advice to congregations that take far left or far right positions on this? Is it possible to take a traditional position on homosexuality and still be a congregation that effectively reaches gays and lesbians?
ADAM: I think it will be increasingly difficult to be a vocal proponent of the current UM position on homosexuality and effectively reach the next generation, or to effectively reach gays and lesbians. I think one might hold the current UM stance and not address the issue and reach them. One might, for the next five years (ten years in the south) articulate our current position with great compassion, and still reach young adults, homosexuals and their friends, family and co-workers. But the world is changing and I think the church will see this issue differently in the future. I'm convinced that all of the evangelical churches will wrestle with this issue in ten to fifteen years or they will have lost a generation and will themselves begin a steady period of decline. Sunday I asked our congregation to raise their hands if they have a close friend or someone they love who is gay. 90% of the congregation raised their hands. These folks already see greater complexity in this issue than the church does. They may still be a bit more conservative, but they will not tolerate churches that speak in ways that are cruel and insensitive about their friends. It's one thing to debate homosexuality as a hypothetical argument about someone you hardly know. It is another thing to consider a position regarding the life of someone you love.
My own journey and position on this involves several things: First, I continue to acknowledge that the scripture teaches that heterosexuality is normative and, to use Leslie Weatherhead's language from his book, The Will of God, God's "intentional will." The second is to recognize that there is a small portion of the population that seems to be shaped differently from that intention, either at birth or by early childhood, and usually not by a choice that was their own. For these heterosexuality will be very difficult to live into, even with the kind of "reparative therapy" offered by some. Next, after thirty years of daily Bible reading I have come to recognize that the Bible is a more complex document than most people would like to admit. It is both a book written by human beings who were shaped by their cultural and theological presuppositions, and the limitations of their knowledge, and it is a book through which God has spoken and continues to speak. This recognition gives us the ability to wrestle with the texts on homosexuality and to at least ask questions of them (did God really intend that homosexuals be stoned to death? Does God really see the gay children who we baptized, gave third grade Bibles to, confirmed and raised up as an "abomination"?) Fourth, we have a clear mandate, throughout scripture, concerning demonstrating love. We are to "do justice and to love mercy." Finally, what has most affected me and my views of this issue over the years has been my love of the children in our congregation. Having been in this church nearly 19 years, more than a dozen of the children I've baptized and watched grow up in the church later "came out" - I love these children (now young adults) and as I listen to their stories, and the way they've been treated by other Christians, I find myself being very protective of them. Likewise, in a congregation of 16,000 people, if we're reaching a representative sample of the community, 5% of these - roughly 800 people - are gay or lesbian. And I feel a great compassion and care for those in my flock that I know who are gay. So, both in my theological reflection about the nature of God, the nature of scripture and the nature of love, and in my personal experience with children and youth I care about in my flock, I find my views moderating on this issue.
I've
tried to navigate a third way that says that we at Church of the
Resurrection will agree to disagree about this issue - we've got folks
on both sides. But we will continue to try to learn, grow and
understand more clearly both the issue of homosexuality and how God
looks at his children who are gay. And we will be a place where no
one's children are turned away, or wounded by our church. I have tried
to model how we might affirm the normative status of heterosexuality
while seeing homosexuality with fresh and more sensitive and
understanding eyes than we have in the past.
I
still have a lot of unresolved questions about homosexuality, but what
I've said captures the struggle, and the journey, I've been on.
SHANE: Now for a little fun. Suppose TBN calls and offers you your own television show. What do you tell them? If you had your own daily TV show, what would it look like?
ADAM: No to TBN! I have watched some of their programming and I would not be a good fit! They'd kick me off within a few weeks, I think. But if I had time, I would love to do a daily show to talk about Christian ethics, theology and practical Christian living on PBS. I would do a Q&A format - I love doing Q&A sessions at the church. And I would include short stories from daily life- I saw a news story last year about a concert violinist who started playing in the subway in some major city. They had a hidden camera on the guy to see if anyone stopped, but virtually no one did- they just kept hurriedly going about their business. And I thought, there's a short sermon there- how we miss out on the amazing beauty around us because we're in such a hurry. That's the kind of short stories I'd do! But there's no time. I'll leave that for someone else. The closest thing I've seen to what I would do is Religion & Ethics Newsweekly.
SHANE: You talk about Macs and iPhones a lot. What are you, an Apple snob?
ADAM: Ha! I suppose I am. I fell in love with the Mac in 1985, my first year of seminary. I saved up enough to buy a used Mac in early 1986 and I still have that original Mac sitting on my desk as a decoration (and it still runs!).
-
EDITOR'S NOTE: Be sure to check out Adam's blog. Also, the sermon I mentioned near the end of the interview can be found here.
SHANE: Now for a little fun. Suppose TBN calls and offers you your own television show. What do you tell them? If you had your own daily TV show, what would it look like?
ADAM: No to TBN! I have watched some of their programming and I would not be a good fit! They'd kick me off within a few weeks, I think. But if I had time, I would love to do a daily show to talk about Christian ethics, theology and practical Christian living on PBS. I would do a Q&A format - I love doing Q&A sessions at the church. And I would include short stories from daily life- I saw a news story last year about a concert violinist who started playing in the subway in some major city. They had a hidden camera on the guy to see if anyone stopped, but virtually no one did- they just kept hurriedly going about their business. And I thought, there's a short sermon there- how we miss out on the amazing beauty around us because we're in such a hurry. That's the kind of short stories I'd do! But there's no time. I'll leave that for someone else. The closest thing I've seen to what I would do is Religion & Ethics Newsweekly.
SHANE: You talk about Macs and iPhones a lot. What are you, an Apple snob?
ADAM: Ha! I suppose I am. I fell in love with the Mac in 1985, my first year of seminary. I saved up enough to buy a used Mac in early 1986 and I still have that original Mac sitting on my desk as a decoration (and it still runs!).
-
EDITOR'S NOTE: Be sure to check out Adam's blog. Also, the sermon I mentioned near the end of the interview can be found here.
